From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Mon Jul 1 04:00 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id EAA01123 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 04:00:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id VAA02561 for quake-dev-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:58:30 -0400 Received: from ccnet4.ccnet.com (root@ccnet4.ccnet.com [192.215.96.9]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id VAA02556 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 21:58:23 -0400 Received: from h96-130.ccnet.com (h96-130.ccnet.com [192.215.96.130]) by ccnet4.ccnet.com (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA01478 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 18:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by h96-130.ccnet.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BB66B5.08255A40@h96-130.ccnet.com>; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 18:50:39 -0700 Message-ID: <01BB66B5.08255A40@h96-130.ccnet.com> From: Derek Nickel To: "'Quake Dev'" Subject: MAP file information Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 18:49:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 39 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1400 Everybody probably already knows this, but since I couldn't find any = specific information, I had to figure it out for myself. Therefore, I = thought I'd pass on what I found. If this information is available = elsewhere, then please let me know... (1) a point (x,y,z) is represented by ( x y z ) in the MAP file. (2) Spaces are required around all tokens, i.e., the "(", x, y, z, and = ")". (3) x is east, y is north, and z is up. (4) angles are in degrees, counterclockwise, with zero pointing east. (5) a plane definition in a MAP file is composed of: { ( x1 y1 z1 ) ( x2 y2 z2 ) ( x3 y3 z3 ) texname shift_s shift_t rotate = scale_s scale_t } (6) each square of the pink checkerboard is 8 units wide. The three points determine a plane. The points do not have to be = vertices of the larger brush. The texname is the name of the texture in = the WAD file to apply to this plane (both sides?) I think (s,t) are = texture space coordinates; how much to shift, rotate and scale the = applied texture. So far, (3) is what really tripped me up. Luckily (for me, at least), = johnc99.map was not a cube :-) I looks to me that creating maps for Quake will be easier that for DOOM. = It was too easy to trash a DOOM level (maybe I just didn't get enough = practice...) My MAP editor is Cartographer - it's dreamware, yet to upgraded to = vaporware... Derek Nickel dnickel@ccnet.com From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Mon Jul 1 08:22 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA01292 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:22:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id CAA06026 for quake-dev-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 02:21:44 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id CAA06021 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 02:21:40 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA01286; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:21:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id IAA03856; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:21:29 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:21:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607010621.IAA03856@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org, bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de Subject: Info from John Carmack (13) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3109 X-Lines: 82 Status: RO ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From johnc@idcanon1.idsoftware.com Sat Jun 29 22:13 MET 1996 You wrote: > Q: is there a chance to see the qlumpy sources as well? With > respect to mipmap generation from patches, for TC projects and > WAD2MAP conversion. Sure, I just need to get around to it. > Q: while we are already being greedy - somebody asked for the > Alias2MDL conversion. Related: no sources released so far deal with > MDL stuff. Any objections against distributing MDL related > descriptions or sources? Again, no problem. > Q: MDL skins are not mipmapped - necessity, convenience? Is it > worth the trouble? Is the triangle texture mapper less accurate > then the world's? The polygon objects seem to "stick out" at times. It probably would have been good to mipmap them. The triangle renderer IS less acurate -- integral pixel / texel, just like a sony playstation. Very fast, though. > Q: minor: would a bilinear filtering on the sky textures during > setup for 800x600+ hires be worth the quality increase? The most obvious flaw with the sky is that the parallax is integralized. I think adding bilerping before fixing that would be unwarranted. > > Q: some time ago I suggested see-through markers to indicate a > direction towards an obscured target/opponent. You pointed out that > this will destroy the illusion of a rock solid world and therefore > immersion. > > I agree that people who think visor-plane embedded augmented > reality HUD's perfectly natural are possibly a minority.. read: you > are probably right :-). > > However, I fail to understand the reasoning behind e.g. the status > bar, which is even worse for immersion. There are other solutions > (non-HUD as well), some of them already used (auditory clues, pain > reddening etc.). I was refering to a specific optical illusion that occurs when an object is properly positioned in 3d, but is misoccluded. This is distinct from simple floating text or status bars, which have no 3d positioning at all. > > Q: another design question: you did avoid partly random placement > of objects intentionally? I see some drawbacks for detailed level > design, but not unsolveable. The worlds are too complex for pure random placement. If you are concerned about just the predictability aspect, it would be easy to create fractional monsters that only spawn, say 25% of the time, so you have a huge diversity in the way the level turns out. It is an open question if that diversity is actually a good thing, though. After a player has beaten the game, sure, they would like the diversity, but for a normal player trying to work through the game, part of the sense of accomplishment is the learning of the layout. > > Just to confirm: what I presumed a now unused test map (test1.map, > aka dm1.map) is the DeathMatch1 of the registered release? Yes. There are six dm levels in registered. The three from qtest, and three new ones. American has been working on an extra one, but it will probably just be released as a free game for registered users. John Carmack ----- End Included Message ----- From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Mon Jul 1 10:49 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id KAA02058 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 10:49:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id EAA07095 for quake-dev-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 04:48:34 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id EAA07091 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 04:48:24 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id KAA02053 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 10:48:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id KAA03983 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 10:48:08 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 10:48:08 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607010848.KAA03983@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Rotation of BSP objects/worlds X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2437 X-Lines: 49 Status: RO > From: Mackey McCandlish > Around the time just before Qtest1 was released, they were discussing > possibly having entire levels rotating. Of course I haven't heard of this ever > happening, so it could be that rotation was dumped. Yes, you'd think there'd be > SOME swinging doors in the entire shareware episode. To my understanding, BSP files for BSP objects are still identical to those used with the world (entity 0). Thus my comments on NAT's in my early pages and in the Primer should still apply here: texture alignment in Quake depends on position and orientation within the world. This means that an entire level rotating requires correcting all texture offsets and scales, and even rotations, for each frame. This does not work. The alternative, i.e. (x,y,z,s,t) vertices would allow for arbitrary movements. The problem is as well present for BSP objects like doors moving within the level. As BSP objects are subject to the same rendering pipeline as the world, they are using NAT's as well. Moving a door along the major axes [sic :] requires correcting s_ofs or t_ofs. Moving a door along a sloped line requires the same, but on both offsets at once. Doable, but has not been part of qtest1, IIRC. Now consider a rotating door: as long as the axial orientation is the same, you have to adjust the s_scale and t_scale to compensate the inevitable NAT distortion. You have to calculate a rot attribute as well (easy if your axis of rotation is perpendicular to a surface, but not as easy else). This is a 90% of a pain already. As soon as the axial orientation of the surfaces flips, the texture coordinates derived from the world coordinates are completely unrelated to the previous ones. In this case, you are up for a major correction of the texture coordinates. If you look at the Infos 2,7,9 from John Carmack, you will find that this drawback of NAT's has been discussed already. Ceterum censeo: NAT's are a texture alignment mode feature for each wannabe-editor. They should not be part of the renderer. I am still hoping that the Fix will make it into Quake 2. b. P.S.: if the topic of a thread changed significantly, please take the time to change the Subject. This has been "Standard Brush Format". From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue Jul 2 14:35 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA08613 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:35:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id IAA20828 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 08:31:02 -0400 Received: from wisdom.psinet.net.au (root@wisdom.psinet.net.au [203.19.29.2]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id IAA20823 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 08:30:52 -0400 Received: from wisdom_25.psinet.net.au (wisdom_25.psinet.net.au [203.19.29.229]) by wisdom.psinet.net.au (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id TAA11203 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:06:19 +0800 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:06:19 +0800 Message-Id: <199607021106.TAA11203@wisdom.psinet.net.au> X-Sender: stokfam@mail.psinet.net.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: stokfam@wisdom.psinet.net.au (Michael Stokes) Subject: DOOM to QUAKE Conversion Report Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 20 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 768 I'd just like to report that I have full doom/doom II to quake geometric conversion working. I just played MAP30 of DOOM II in quake...FUN!! The entire set of floors/walls are converted correctly, and weapons/ammo/monsters are replaced by the closest matching quake object. Textures are in however they are not corrected for the natural orientation problem (NAT) yet. I assume from previous postings however that it is illegal to distribute such a program because Quake Addons must only work with the registered version of the game. The program is called QUAKEDM. Mike. =============================================== Michael J Stokes http://www.psinet.net.au/~stokfam =============================================== From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue Jul 2 14:53 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA08705 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:45:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id IAA20939 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 08:43:59 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id IAA20934 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 08:43:33 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA07655; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 12:03:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id MAA04876; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 12:03:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 12:03:09 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607021003.MAA04876@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org, bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de Subject: Info from John Carmack (13a) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3088 X-Lines: 82 Status: RO Here's one out of turn - additional tool sources released, and some insights on rotating objects - btw., are weapons and keys BSP objects, or MDL's? b. ----- Begin Included Messages ----- >From johnc@idcanon1.idsoftware.com Tue Jul 2 09:12 MET 1996 The misc utilities (graphics, model, sprite grabbing, etc) source is now up on ftp.idsoftware.com. I still have to get the qcc code and .qc source up, but I think I am going to wait until the registered CD actually starts rolling out of the pressing houses, so I catch any last minute prog changes. John Carmack >From johnc@idcanon1.idsoftware.com Mon Jul 1 17:13 MET 1996 From: John Carmack Date: Mon, 1 Jul 96 10:11:48 -0500 To: Bernd Kreimeier You wrote: > Q: the list got some traffic on idle speculation whether entities > (BSP objects like doors) could be rotated. Is this a problem > because of NAT's? I presume that BSP object textures are rendered > with corrected offsets during axial movement, but rotation would > require rot and/or scale (to correct NAT distortions on diagonals). > Is rotation of a BSP model implemented? Movements along slopes? Rotation of BSP models works for drawing, but you do not movement clip against them properly. That was an on again - off again feature during quake's development. It was in at the beginning, but one of the major rewrites of the movement code lost it. One other issue is that all of the inline models (ones that are part of the map) have their origin at 0,0,0, so when they rotate, they fly way out of the world. If you want a spinning brush model, it needs to be a seperate map, like the health / ammo boxes. I will make that right sometime along the road to Quake 2. > Q: it seems that dynamic lighting does not take into account the > direction of the normal of the surface with respect of the > lightsource. Example is the "finished" view of e1m6 - the lava > balls in the adjacent room induce "searchlights" on the wall that > faces away from the lava. Would this check bog down performance? It > might as well be a possible gain. I did that on purpose, but I am considering changing it just so I can stop answering this question :-) Sure, just checking the normal is easy, and we have debated if that is a good idea. The issue is that if you have a light on the other side of a wall near the floor, the light shows up currently on both the floor and the wall, giving a continuous surface of light. If it was turned off on the wall by checking its facing direction, then only the light on the floor would remain, in a two dimensional bleed. Removing it from the floor is not trivial, requiring proper shadow calculations that Quake isn't set up to handle (and dynamic light allready are a big enough speed hit). I thought that keeping the light 3d and continuous was better than having it act based on surface normals. They are both wrong, so it is just a judgement call... John Carmack ----- End Included Message ----- From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue Jul 2 15:47 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA09305 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:46:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id JAA21703 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 09:46:37 -0400 Received: from minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (minerva.phyast.pitt.edu [136.142.111.2]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id JAA21699 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 09:46:33 -0400 Received: (brian@localhost) by minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (8.6.10/8.6.5) id JAA07013 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 09:46:15 -0400 From: "Brian K. Martin" Message-Id: <199607021346.JAA07013@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Subject: rotating objects To: quake-dev@gamers.org Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 09:46:15 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199607021003.MAA04876@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> from "Bernd Kreimeier" at Jul 2, 96 12:03:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 10 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 215 > > > Here's one out of turn - additional tool sources released, and > some insights on rotating objects - btw., are weapons and keys > BSP objects, or MDL's? > > rotating things are mdl. (armor, keys, etc..) From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 00:28 MET 1996 Posted-Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 17:23:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jlowell@winternet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 17:21:54 -0500 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jim Lowell Subject: Clarification (from Id this time) Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 66 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1872 After reading this on the list last week: >Perhaps I am already infected with this disease of being >unable to set the record straight.... > > [ quote deleted - b. ] > >If you think you found a flaw in their concept, consider it >a bug and send a report to support@idsoftware.com. Thanks. I decided to take the advice at the end of the message and asked Shawn Green what the deal was. Here's the message: >>Hi Shawn, >> >>I'm helping Jon Mavor (a friend of mine) out with a Quake editor that he's >>writing. We're both on the Quake Dev list and there's been a lot of >>discussion over releasing editors that work with the shareware version of >>Quake. My understanding is that Id doesn't want 3rd party levels to work >>with the shareware version of Quake. > >Not only that, but I'm pretty sure we've made it illegal to do so. > >>Right now, Jon can create a level from >>scratch and load it into Shareware Quake no problem. Instant conflict, right? > >Instant. > >>1) I read this piece of e-mail that Jay had sent to someone: >> >>>1. user-developed/user-modified maps & utilities can only work with the >>>registered version. (Just to be clear here...user-developed/user-modified >>>maps & utilities cannot work with the shareware version of Quake.) >> >>Since Jon can already do this, I assume that Jay means that editors >>shouldn't work with the shareware Quake. Is this right? > >Right. > >>2) Does Id have any method for making a level *not* work with shareware >>Quake, but still work with the registered version? If so, Jon could build it >>into his editor. > >Give it a episode # > 1. Just like DOOM. So the piece of information that should be gleened from this lengthy message is: "Quake map editors should only be able to write maps with episodes greater than one otherwise the Shareware version of Quake will be able to load them." -= Jim Lowell =- From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 02:35 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id CAA10189 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 02:34:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id UAA28661 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:25:47 -0400 Received: from imssc2.sc.intel.com (imssc2.sc.intel.com [143.183.152.8]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id UAA28657 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:25:43 -0400 Received: from td2cad.intel.com by imssc2.sc.intel.com (8.7.4/10.0i); Tue, 2 Jul 1996 13:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by td2cad.intel.com id AA26105 (5.65c+/IDA-1.4.4 for quake-dev@gamers.org); Tue, 2 Jul 1996 13:54:00 -0700 From: bstastnX@td2cad.intel.com Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 13:54:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199607022054.AA26105@td2cad.intel.com> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Qbsp/vis/light running times Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1055 X-Lines: 38 Status: RO Hello all, For what it is worth I have a few compiled executables that are not compiled with Visual C++, but instead with a optimizing compiler. Vis seems to run about 10% faster then the VC build and I figure that people will want to make levels on their home computers, so 10% could add up to a few hours. Here are the results Qbsp Vis Light ========================== VC4.0 78.0 208.0 35.0 P166 New 73.0 186.0 33.0 P166 New 63.0(?) 99.0 21.0 PP200* * this one crashed on reading the texutres. They were all run on Dm1.map, Dm1.bsp. There are two seperate builds one for the Intel Pentium and one for the Intel Pentuim Pro. They are located at: ftp.best.com/pub/j/jbcal/qexes ftp.best.com/pub/j/jbcal/qexes/pro I will most likely keep them there for a few days and then remove them. If anyone would like to make home for them that would be nice, just let me know and I will send you any new builds I make. Also thanks to: gregl@umich.edu & darksead@scn.org for running the programs for me. bret From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 06:20 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id GAA10332 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:20:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id AAA03286 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:16:41 -0400 Received: from netcom12.netcom.com (darkelf@netcom12.netcom.com [192.100.81.124]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id AAA03279 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:16:32 -0400 Received: (from darkelf@localhost) by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id VAA22007; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:17:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:17:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Drizzt Do'Urden" Subject: Re: Clarification (from Id this time) To: quake-dev@gamers.org In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960702222154.006a66a8@winternet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 22 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 1093 > >>2) Does Id have any method for making a level *not* work with shareware > >>Quake, but still work with the registered version? If so, Jon could build it > >>into his editor. > > > >Give it a episode # > 1. Just like DOOM. I hate to say it, but that just doesn't work. As far as I can tell, there is no protection from loading levels of any kind in the shareware. Technically, maps don't even have episodes/map numbers in them, this is clearly shown in the .map format. A map is whatever you name it. And with the "map " command, loading any level created is currently possible. I don't know what is up with id that they don't have their stuff together on this, but at the current time there is absolutly NO protection in the SW version. Assume they remove the "map" command in a future version of the shareware? Ppl will just unpack the .pak file and rename BSP's as needed. Or extract/insert new ones as needed. Unless id makes a new bsp format the is incompatible between regged/shareware, I don't see how they can stop users from loading custom maps. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 06:59 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id GAA10351 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:59:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id AAA04669 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:54:11 -0400 Received: from relay.interserv.com (uhura.interserv.net [165.121.1.67]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id AAA04661 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:54:01 -0400 Received: from nstorm.sonetis.com (port027-46-yow.iosphere.net) by relay.interserv.com with SMTP id AA26992 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for quake-dev@gamers.org); Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:56:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:56:47 -0700 Message-Id: <199607030456.AA26992@relay.interserv.com> X-Sender: nstorm@sonetis.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jonathan Mavor Subject: Re: Clarification (from Id this time) Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 23 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 983 At 09:17 PM 7/2/96 -0700, you wrote: > I don't know what is up with id that they don't have their stuff >together on this, but at the current time there is absolutly NO >protection in the SW version. Assume they remove the "map" command in a >future version of the shareware? Ppl will just unpack the .pak file and >rename BSP's as needed. Or extract/insert new ones as needed. > > Unless id makes a new bsp format the is incompatible between >regged/shareware, I don't see how they can stop users from loading custom >maps. Weird isn't it? I wish I knew what they meant... however there may be a key/value pair or entity that tells what episode the level is from... if you don't put it in it just works but if you DO put it in it won't load in the shareware... that's possible isn't it? Otherwise I don't see the point either. L8r, Jon PS anyone who hasn't checked it out go to www.winternet.com/~jlowell/thred and email me your comments. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 11:42 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA11657 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:42:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id FAA06781 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 05:40:14 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id FAA06777 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 05:40:08 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA11520 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:39:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id LAA06706 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:39:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:39:22 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607030939.LAA06706@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1311 X-Lines: 39 Status: RO Jon wrote: >PS anyone who hasn't checked it out go to > www.winternet.com/~jlowell/thred >and email me your comments. Just one remark, publicly with reason: I do not like the term "concave brush". To my understanding, a brush is convex by definition. There is not way to define a non-convex solid by simply listing planes, right? A concave brush is as politely offending as an oxymoron... It is not only confusion - a concave pseudo-Brush, IMO, is the worse of two alternative solutions - the problem being, of course, that rooms are by definition made inside concave solids. The better solution is to stick to Brushes, and instead add a sophisticated hierarchy/grouping mechanism. This does not only solve the problem, but is useful for other tasks as well: - selective interactive preview - selective BSP/PVS/light creation (on a part of the level) - selective movement/rotation - Brush Set templates (rooms, stairs, etc.) A typical application would be that all Brushes spawned by a CSG operation on two Brushes (by definition almost always creating a concave solid as an intermediate) are automatically part of a set. See Info(9) by John Carmack for a discussion of hierarchy in MAP files. b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 12:30 MET 1996 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 96 08:13:26 GMT From: Tom Wheeley Organization: City Zen FM To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Clarification (from Id this time) X-Mailer: Demon Internet Simple News v1.30 Lines: 23 X-Sig-By: Tomsystems Quote v1.2. (c)1996 Tom Wheeley, tomw@tsys.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1062 X-Lines: 26 Status: RO In article you write: > > >>2) Does Id have any method for making a level *not* work with shareware > > >>Quake, but still work with the registered version? If so, Jon could build it > > >>into his editor. > > > > > >Give it a episode # > 1. Just like DOOM. > > I hate to say it, but that just doesn't work. As far as I can tell, > there is no protection from loading levels of any kind in the shareware. > Technically, maps don't even have episodes/map numbers in them, this is > clearly shown in the .map format. A map is whatever you name it. And > with the "map " command, loading any level created is currently > possible. Correct, and I've mailed id about it. Try this: . unpak just one of the map BSPs . copy it to ~/id1/maps/e4m1.bsp (normal filesystem :) . Noclip through the bars which say `register!' to get to the episode 4 s.g. (of course, this will work on 2 and 3). .splitbung -- * TQ 1.0 * The 'Just So Quotes'. 'You know my motto: Forgive and uh... the other thing.' From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 15:03 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA14483 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:03:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id IAA07929 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 08:54:11 -0400 Received: from wisdom.psinet.net.au (root@wisdom.psinet.net.au [203.19.29.2]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id IAA07924 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 08:54:04 -0400 Received: from wisdom_12.psinet.net.au (wisdom_12.psinet.net.au [203.19.29.242]) by wisdom.psinet.net.au (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id UAA26561 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 20:52:09 +0800 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 20:52:09 +0800 Message-Id: <199607031252.UAA26561@wisdom.psinet.net.au> X-Sender: stokfam@mail.psinet.net.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: stokfam@wisdom.psinet.net.au (Michael Stokes) Subject: Pink Checkboard Texture? Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 12 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 337 Sometimes in Quake I see a Pink Checkboard type texture. Obviously something is wrong. Does anyone know what causes Quake to do this? Mike. =============================================== Michael J Stokes http://www.psinet.net.au/~stokfam =============================================== From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 15:26 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA14770 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:26:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id JAA08205 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 09:24:35 -0400 Received: from relay.bt.net (relay.bt.net [194.72.6.52]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id JAA08201 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 09:24:30 -0400 Received: from onlinemagic.com (actually flash.onlinemagic.com) by relay.bt.net with SMTP (PP); Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:23:50 +0100 Received: by onlinemagic.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA16862; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:23:14 +0100 From: jschuur@onlinemagic.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:23:14 +0100 (BST) To: quake-dev@gamers.org cc: Michael J Stokes Subject: Re: Pink Checkboard Texture? In-Reply-To: <199607031252.UAA26561@wisdom.psinet.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 20 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 685 On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, Michael Stokes wrote: > Sometimes in Quake I see a Pink Checkboard type texture. Obviously something > is wrong. > > Does anyone know what causes Quake to do this? it appears to be the default fill in texture quake uses when the texture refered isn't available in the .bsp file. i had this when recompiling dm1.map with a texture wad assembled from sw quake .bsps how's that doom->quake level converter coming along? -= joost schuur tel - +44 171 820 7766 =- -= software person email - jschuur@onlinemagic.com =- -= online magic ltd, london www - http://www.nuqneH.org/~jschuur/ =- From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 20:56 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA15742 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 20:56:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id OAA11081 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:40:48 -0400 Received: from gozer.actioninc.com (gozer.actioninc.com [204.118.161.2]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id OAA11077 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:40:44 -0400 Received: (from aiken@localhost) by gozer.actioninc.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id LAA21369; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:46:32 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:46:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Brooks Talley X-Sender: aiken@gozer.actioninc.com To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: QuakeEd 1.2? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 8 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 280 So I finally get a couple of NeXT boxes running (one native, one Pentium), and a killer quad P6 NT box I can rsh to for bsp and vis, and now I can't find that patched QuakeEd. Should I just use the one id released, or can someone point me to the fixed-up one? Thanks, aiken From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 21:13 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA15755 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 21:06:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id PAA11267 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:01:49 -0400 Received: from r02n05.cac.psu.edu (r02a05.cac.psu.edu [146.186.15.15]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id PAA11259 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:01:42 -0400 Received: from default ([199.224.95.98]) by r02n05.cac.psu.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA35974 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:02:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199607031902.PAA35974@r02n05.cac.psu.edu> From: "Ryan Drake" To: Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:01:21 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1080 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 27 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Length: 992 > In my editor a brush is a brush is a brush. It's something > that you add to the world or subtract from the world (or later > on intersect/deiontersect with the world). Within my editor > it is totally and completely transparent. The user doesn't NEED > to know whether the brush is concave/convex or a ballahallabaloo brush. But there is no such thing as a "concave brush." The two words contradict each other. Try to draw a square with three edges. You can't because a square is defined as having four edges. Same with brushes: A brush is and will always be convex. It would only confuse the user to allow him/her to make concave objects and call them brushes. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------- ----+ | Ryan Drake Sanity is the trademark of a weak mind. | | stiletto@psu.edu -- Mark Harrold | | http://www.crayola.cse.psu.edu/~drake/home.html | +------------------------------------------------------------------- ----+ From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu Jul 4 00:05 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id AAA15918 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 00:05:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id SAA13710 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 18:01:38 -0400 Received: from relay.interserv.com (uhura.interserv.net [165.121.1.67]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id SAA13706 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 18:01:34 -0400 Received: from nstorm.sonetis.com (port001-20-yow.iosphere.net) by relay.interserv.com with SMTP id AA17818 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for quake-dev@gamers.org); Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:04:28 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:04:28 -0700 Message-Id: <199607032204.AA17818@relay.interserv.com> X-Sender: nstorm@sonetis.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jonathan Mavor Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 24 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 763 At 03:01 PM 7/3/96 -0400, you wrote: >But there is no such thing as a "concave brush." The two words >contradict each other. Try to draw a square with three edges. You >can't because a square is defined as having four edges. Same with >brushes: A brush is and will always be convex. > Why do you say that? Too me a brush is just a CSG object. CSG objects can be ANY size, shape whatever as long as they are a piece of solid material. Anyway I'm going to call my brushes "meta-brushes" so you know what I'm talking about. L8r, Jon >It would only confuse the user to allow him/her to make concave >objects >and call them brushes. I don't see why. It's going to be consistent within my editor. L8r, Jon From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu Jul 4 11:17 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA16684 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:09:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id FAA23017 for quake-dev-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 05:06:12 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id FAA22956 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 05:00:02 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id KAA16617 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:56:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id KAA08258 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:56:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:56:36 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607040856.KAA08258@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: Naturally Aligned Textures X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 568 X-Lines: 18 Status: RO > explanation of NAT's The Quake Editing Primer in the QDP section on http://www.gamers.org/dEngine/quake/#QDP, and the UQS at http://www.gamers.org/dEngine/quake/#UQS. Never write an URL from memory, by hand.... Btw., I wonder if my site is that bad organized... please send private e-mail in case of problems or suggestions, what good is all the info if nobody actually reads it. b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu Jul 4 11:23 MET 1996 Received: from olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (root@olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.1]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA16736 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:23:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA09957 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:02:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id EAA22891 for quake-dev-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 04:55:10 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id EAA22884 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 04:54:39 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id KAA16579 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:54:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id KAA08255 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:54:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:54:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607040854.KAA08255@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3990 X-Lines: 93 Status: RO >>> A brush is a brush is a rose is a brush > >But there is no such thing as a "concave brush." The two words > >contradict each other. A brush is and will always be convex. > > > Why do you say that? Too me a brush is just a CSG object. > CSG objects can be ANY size, shape whatever as long as they are a piece > of solid material. As I have started this discussion, perhaps I could try to settle it. John Carmack defined the Brush as a convex polyhedron (a polytope). Originally, a Brush was an entry in the MAP files, and qbsp expects Brushes to be polytopes. However, "brush" is a very graphic [sic :] term - perfectly suited to communicate the idea of a solid with a texture pasted onto the surface of some space. Thus I understand Jon's point. The problem is that we end up with a Brush having different meanings during qbsp processing as opposed to editing. This will cause confusion. Being paranoid does not mean they aren't out to get you. > >It would only confuse the user to allow him/her to make concave > >objects > >and call them brushes. > > I don't see why. It's going to be consistent within > my editor. I admire your willingness to make sure there won't be mistakes - this is a lot of work within your editor's guts, and in the brains of its users. Let me quote from the THRED page Jim Lowell has written: >so if I misunderstood what he explained to >me and have it wrong here, let me know so I can fix it! >Quake uses all convex brushes. In a convex brush the surfaces that >make up the outside of the brush do not intersect any other surfaces >of the same brush. This means that the brushes are always solid. A >brush that does have surfaces that cross other surfaces of the same >brush is a concave brush. I do not understand this. A polytope can be defined listing intersecting planes - no ambiguity. A concave polyhedron cannot be defined this way (its convex hull could). But no polyhedron will ever have surfaces (faces, facets) intersecting. I admit that a definition of polyhedra is difficult (see O'Rourke, Computational Geometry, chapter 4), but I do not understand the definition given above. This is important. Using brushes==polytopes, you only intersect brushes, but you do not have to check the brush intersecting itself. Using boundary representations of polyhedra (even concave), you will have to check for self-intersection, or your BRep will be wrong. >A concave brush can define a hollow area, unlike a convex brush. This >means that you can create one brush that is a hollow tube, or a whole >room (it would be a hollow cube), or a hollow sphere. This I understand. Just like a concave polygon might have a hole, a concave polyhedron might be hollow. >You could, for example, create a brush that was a room, then to use >it you would just add it to the world, tell the editor how thick to >make the walls; how tall, wide, & long to make the room, and >the editor could create it for you! (in fact, this particular example >will be built into the editor) With convex brushes, you would have to >add 6 brushes (floor, ceiling, and 4 walls), then rotate & arrange >them to form the walls of the room. This is, a Jon calls it, simply a meta-Brush operation. It could be completely transparent whether the editor internally uses a group of Brushes, or a concave polyhedron to represent the meta-Brush. Jon wrote: > Anyway I'm going to call my brushes "meta-brushes" > so you know what I'm talking about. That will hopefully put the matter at rest - and, btw., I like "meta-Brush" a lot better than group or set. Or is there any difference between a gropup/set/selection of Brushes and your meta-Brushes? Connectedness? In that case I will coin the term RoseBrush. I dare ya! b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu Jul 4 11:30 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA16798 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:26:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id FAA23104 for quake-dev-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 05:17:56 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id FAA22984 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 05:01:42 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id KAA16646 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:58:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id KAA08261 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:57:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 10:57:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607040857.KAA08261@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: QuakeEd 1.2? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 295 X-Lines: 13 Status: RO > sources http://www.gamers.org/dEngine/archive/, or simply the archive link on the main page. I should probably add an icon/link for this on every subpage. b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu Jul 4 14:41 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA17379 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:41:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id IAA24686 for quake-dev-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 08:40:00 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id IAA24681 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 08:39:48 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA17370; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:39:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id OAA08385; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:39:29 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:39:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607041239.OAA08385@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org, bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de Subject: qbsp X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1899 X-Lines: 48 Status: RO I did some work with the qbsp sources. Here are a few insights: - compiling as C++ with gcc-2.7.2 created a binary of approx. 30 MB with linux and Solaris 2.5, because of global arrays. Fix: use -fconserve-space, shrinks to 100K or less - this means that the same 30 MB are resident memory. This will swap a lot on machines with less than at least 32 MB memory. Fix: dynamic or pool allocation and garbage collection might decrease this. - at least two constructs get warnings about cast related alignment problems during Solaris compile: tjunc.c:superface and bspfile.c:dtexmap. This might be a suspect with respect to the bus errors on Solaris. Fix: do not use byte arrays. - qbsp does not do any mipmap processing besides adding them, IIRC. This task could be completely separated, removing the mipmap lump buffer memory requirements from the program entirely (and the related source). Remarks: pool allocation might require hash tables to get pointers for indices, haven't looked to closely. Replacing the byte arrays took me using derived structs (classes) and casting to base class pointer. I think that, in the long run, qbsp should only add a dummy mipmap and the mipmap names. A separate utility should add the mipmaps from a WAD2. For dm1.map, mipmaps seem to be about half of the final BSP file, and are easily added afterwards - as has been discussed on this list extensively. Finally, the Solaris 2.5 binary produces a different BSP file, the difference occuring during the passes to merge faces. I have no clue why this happens. I will have to check if the BSP file actually works (now where's that Linux quake...). No further Solaris work in any case, as far as I am concerned. Is anybody else currently working with the qbsp sources? Any comments? b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue Jul 2 20:54 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA09951 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:54:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id OAA24707 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:50:40 -0400 Received: from yoss.canweb.net (root@yoss.canweb.net [207.0.185.8]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id OAA24703 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:50:34 -0400 Received: (from fisty@localhost) by yoss.canweb.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA01295; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:48:32 -0400 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:48:29 -0400 (EDT) From: FiSTY To: Quake Developers Subject: .map Algorithms Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 16 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 513 a couple weeks ago, I posted here about a page I started regarding .map Algorithms, in particular, how to convert from planes into vertices, etc. Well shortly afterwords, the pages got moved around and some may have not been able to find it... so here it is again... http://www.canweb.net/~fisty/algorithms/ And just recently, John Carmack's algorithms was posted... ...Fisty =========================================== FiSTY fisty@yoss.canweb.net the shaker project - http://www.canweb.net/~fisty/shaker/ From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 17:11 MET 1996 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 08:07:17 -0700 X-Sender: nstorm@sonetis.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jonathan Mavor Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 46 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1433 At 11:39 AM 7/3/96 +0200, you wrote: >The better solution is to stick to Brushes, and instead add >a sophisticated hierarchy/grouping mechanism. This does not >only solve the problem, but is useful for other tasks as well: > In my editor a brush is a brush is a brush. It's something that you add to the world or subtract from the world (or later on intersect/deiontersect with the world). Within my editor it is totally and completely transparent. The user doesn't NEED to know whether the brush is concave/convex or a ballahallabaloo brush. > - selective interactive preview > - selective BSP/PVS/light creation (on a part of the level) > - selective movement/rotation > - Brush Set templates (rooms, stairs, etc.) > >A typical application would be that all Brushes spawned by a >CSG operation on two Brushes (by definition almost always >creating a concave solid as an intermediate) are automatically >part of a set. > I already have brush groups implemented. You can make groups and filter what you see and what gets exported to quake using the group system. When "meta-brushes" are busted up into brushes it's transparent and they do become part of the same group. As for the brush set templates that will be supported if someone else makes them. Otherwise in my editor a "meta-brush" can be created that is any of those (a room is already in there, stairs etc will be). L8r, Jon From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 3 19:36 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA15696 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 19:33:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id NAA10425 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 13:24:09 -0400 Received: from wisdom.psinet.net.au (root@wisdom.psinet.net.au [203.19.29.2]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id NAA10421 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 13:24:02 -0400 Received: from wisdom_3.psinet.net.au (wisdom_3.psinet.net.au [203.19.29.251]) by wisdom.psinet.net.au (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id BAA31886 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 01:25:20 +0800 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 01:25:20 +0800 Message-Id: <199607031725.BAA31886@wisdom.psinet.net.au> X-Sender: stokfam@mail.psinet.net.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: stokfam@wisdom.psinet.net.au (Michael Stokes) Subject: Naturally Aligned Textures Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 15 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 440 Hello, Is there any information around about the way Quake uses naturally aligned textures? I have not been able to find any. All I need is a simple algorithm to find the texture coordinates for the upper left hand corner of a polygon. Mike. =============================================== Michael J Stokes http://www.psinet.net.au/~stokfam =============================================== From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu Jul 4 15:17 MET 1996 Posted-Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 08:13:48 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jlowell@winternet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 08:13:48 -0500 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jim Lowell Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 36 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 849 At 10:54 AM 7/4/96 +0200, you wrote: > >I admire your willingness to make sure there won't be mistakes - this >is a lot of work within your editor's guts, and in the brains of its >users. Let me quote from the THRED page Jim Lowell has written: > >> >> [ quote deleted - b. ] >> The reason I included that section was because I didn't understand brushes myself (and still don't to a large extent), and I thought that a lot of other people probably didn't either. What I was is a VERY SIMPLE explanation of brushes, and the difference between a concave brush and a convex brush. I don't want to use anything that sounds like "A polytope can be defined listing intersecting planes - no ambiguity." As simple as this may seem to many of you, it's over my head (and therefore other people's heads) and therefore meaningless. Thanks! -= Jim Lowell =- From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 04:53 MET 1996 Received: from olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (root@olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.1]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id EAA19801 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 04:53:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@[128.205.37.150]) by olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA17437 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 04:53:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id WAA26205 for quake-dev-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 22:46:20 -0400 Received: from mail.conline.com (l2.conline.com [204.96.7.69]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id WAA26201 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 22:46:07 -0400 Received: from dal1-5.conline.com (dal1-5.conline.com [204.96.7.5]) by mail.conline.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA01646; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 18:52:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199607042352.SAA01646@mail.conline.com> X-Sender: jelson@conline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 18:44:33 -0500 To: quake-dev@gamers.org, quake-dev@gamers.org From: jelson@conline.com (Jim Elson) Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 38 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1885 At 08:13 AM 7/4/96 -0500, Jim Lowell wrote: >The reason I included that section was because I didn't understand brushes >myself (and still don't to a large extent), and I thought that a lot of >other people probably didn't either. What I was is a VERY SIMPLE explanation >of brushes, and the difference between a concave brush and a convex brush. I >don't want to use anything that sounds like "A polytope can be defined >listing intersecting planes - no ambiguity." As simple as this may seem to >many of you, it's over my head (and therefore other people's heads) and >therefore meaningless. Well, I too have been reading this list for a while wondering when enough will be said that I understand what is meant by a "brush" (About like reading science journals outside one's field of expertise, sooner or later the meaning of a tech term will become clear.) Although the discussion of a "brush" on the THRED page doesn't pass full technical muster, it did an excellent job of giving me a better grasp of "brushes". (Heh, as soon as I saw the illustration, I was immediately reminded of the time I worked with 3D CAD programs: it became intuitively obvious.) Jim is quite right that most ppl will need a simplified explanation of brushes that's also technically correct. (Exactly similar to dissertation defenses when you have to explain your reasoning to a professor from school outside your own or in thesis defenses when you are asked to explain your thesis to a hypothetical newspaper/magazine reporter.) --H2H ============================================================================ Memeber of Team TNT, makers of Final Doom Other Doom projects: H2HMudFE, H2H-Xmas, and other way kewl stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- jelson@conline.com ; http://www.conline.com/~jelson/ ; H2H on #quake (IRC) From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 11:21 MET 1996 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 08:32:02 -0700 X-Sender: nstorm@sonetis.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jonathan Mavor Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 58 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1836 At 10:54 AM 7/4/96 +0200, you wrote: > > [ full quote blahdeblah - this is getting awkward - b. ] > >The problem is that we end up with a Brush having different meanings >during qbsp processing as opposed to editing. This will cause >confusion. Being paranoid does not mean they aren't out to get you. > It shoudn't cause confusion though because why would the user ever look at the .MAP file? If they are using my editor they consider a brush to a solid thing. When they save to .MAP they have no idea it's being busted up into convex regions. See? >>Quake uses all convex brushes. In a convex brush the surfaces that >>make up the outside of the brush do not intersect any other surfaces >>of the same brush. This means that the brushes are always solid. A >>brush that does have surfaces that cross other surfaces of the same >>brush is a concave brush. > >I do not understand this. [ deleted ] > I tried to get him to change that. Basically what I meant is that no PLANE of any POLYGON will intersect any other POLYGON in the brush in a concave brush (when it's in polygon form). Just like in a convex polygon no edge will intersect any other edge. >> Anyway I'm going to call my brushes "meta-brushes" >> so you know what I'm talking about. > >That will hopefully put the matter at rest - and, btw., I like >"meta-Brush" a lot better than group or set. Or is there any difference >between a gropup/set/selection of Brushes and your meta-Brushes? >Connectedness? Yes. Within the editor a "meta-brush" looks just like a brush. It's not broken up into convex regions. For a hollow cube it would be 16 points and 12 polygons. A group is a selection of brushes. I'm going to allow groups to be children of other groups later on too, so that you can build a hierarchy. L8r, Jon From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 11:48 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA21294 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:47:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id FAA27781 for quake-dev-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 05:44:22 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id FAA27773 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 05:44:03 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA21286 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:46:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id LAA09086 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:46:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:46:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607050946.LAA09086@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3732 X-Lines: 72 Status: RO [ this posting got lost yesterday on delivery - if it's sibling should return from whatever place lost mails go, my apologies for the duplicate ] Jim Lowell lazily wrote: >> [excessive quote deleted] > >If anyone is interested, I would very much appreciate an accurate, simple, >straightforward paragraph or two that describes brushes. I would copy this >right onto the page if it was clean enough. :) Being greedy, aren't we? There might not be such a thing - simplicity and accuracy might well be mutually exclusive in this case. Hmmm, I'll have to tackle this for the Primer anyway, so let's see how close I can get. A Brush is a solid volume, a body wrapped into by some flat surfaces that define its skin - the border between "inside" and "outside". The surfaces are called polygons or faces. There have to be at least four such faces (triangles defining a tetrahedron), but there might be six (squares defining a cube), or any number >= 4 for different shapes. Thus each brush is what we call a polyhedron. But is each polyedron a brush? Take any two points on the surfaces of the brush or inside the brush. The line connecting them has to be entirely inside the brush, and cannot intersect any surface (except start and end point). This means a brush is convex. In other words, it does not have any holes or dents. A sphere (e.g. represented by lots of triangles) is convex. A tire is not, it has a hole. A bowl is not, it has a dent. You will easily find lines starting and ending inside the solid body, but being partly outside. In consequence, you cannot represent a tire or a bowl with a single brush. Moreover, the faces of a brush are always convex polygons. A convex polygon is described by the same idea in 2D: take any two points inside the polygon, or on the edges, and the line connecting them will be completely inside the polygon. As the faces of concave polyhedra might be concave polygons, I use the word "facets" to describe the faces of a brush. Btw., the classic diamond cut could be represented by a brush as well. How do we actually make a tire, a doughnut, a bowl, a key, a cup? We have to use multiple brushes right away, and glue them together, or we use a concave polyhedron, and have to break it up into brushes later... Why did I say "skin"? A brush is a fake. It looks solid to us, but Quake does not know anything about what's supposed to be inside, and will simply do its best to keep the viewer on the outside. A computer handles brushes by handling the data describing the skin: vertices, edges, faces. This is called a boundary representation. Now if you think about it, you will easily recognize why faces cannot intersect - that is, why even a concave polyhedron cannot self-intersect. Could you say Klein's Bottle? Five paragraphs, and miles to go. Why do people always think there has to be a simple answer? Now I would like to see *your* attempt :-). b. P.S.: the above description is not accurate, btw. - there are convex polyhedra with concave faces. I am sure there are more flaws. P.P.S.: "skin" is intentional. Once you got brush editing, you could create MDL models as well (except that an MDL does not have to be a valid boundary representation, IIRC). You will have to triangulate polygons following all the CSG stuff. The problem is doing frame animation - inverse kinematics moving brushes? From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 11:57 MET 1996 Received: from olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (root@olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.1]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA21312 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:57:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA20142 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:57:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id FAA27966 for quake-dev-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 05:56:57 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id FAA27817 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 05:46:01 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA21278 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:43:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id LAA09081 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:43:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:43:07 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607050943.LAA09081@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1687 X-Lines: 41 Status: RO > It shoudn't cause confusion though because why would >the user ever look at the .MAP file? When they save >to .MAP they have no idea it's being busted up into convex >regions. See? I did too much sysad work, I guess. I keep seeing users tweaking MAP files by hand, and bugs in export filters, all this creating invalid brushes now and then. Now see qbsp's reporting ..... "Invalid Brush in FOOL.MAP" or "brush plane with no normal" or "brush with duplicate plane". Let me get this straight: I do not think that efficient use of Quake editing tools, and level editing is possible without getting the concepts and the basic idea of the rendering algorithms straight. Know thy engine. If somebody wants to do levels but wants to stay ignorant with respect to concepts like "boundary representations" or "aliasing", he (and anybody answering his questions) is going to have a tough time. If you don't care about how scene geometry is related to the PVS size, your levels will be dead slow. Imagine a PVS display: a simple matrix, each cell indicating that leaf i is visible from leaf j, and color indicating the distance (blue short range, red long range). It is intuitive, it is easy feedback on PVS size and structure. But you still have to know how to get rid of the many red ones, and the adjacency display does not give you a clue what PVS is all about. > I'm going to allow groups to be children of other >groups later on too, so that you can build a hierarchy. This is one of the most important features, will be a great thing to see. b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 12:08 MET 1996 Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 12:42:44 +0000 From: Stephen Crowley Organization: WebFire X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: qbsp Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 56 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1596 Bernd Kreimeier wrote: > I did some work with the qbsp sources. Here are a few insights: > > [ full quote deleted blahdeblah - b. ] > > - this means that the same 30 MB are resident memory. > This will swap a lot on machines with less than > at least 32 MB memory. > Fix: dynamic or pool allocation and garbage collection > might decrease this. I noticed a lot of the static arrays in bspfile.c can be moved out to other programs. dvisdata(1MB), dlightdata(1MB), and dtexdata(2MB) for instance use 4MB all together, these could easily be split up into other programs. > - qbsp does not do any mipmap processing besides adding > them, IIRC. This task could be completely separated, > removing the mipmap lump buffer memory requirements > from the program entirely (and the related source). good point > Remarks: pool allocation might require hash tables to > get pointers for indices, haven't looked to closely. > Replacing the byte arrays took me using derived structs > (classes) and casting to base class pointer. I have replaced most of the static arrays (dmodels,dleafs, dplanes,dvertexes,dnodes,texinfo, and dfaces) to arrays of pointers. I made a typedef for each one e.g. "typedef dleaf_t *dleaf_p" and dynamically allocated the memory on the fly. I haven't seen a whole lot of improvement but I expect it to be better once the byte arrays are moved out. > Is anybody else currently working with the qbsp sources? Any > comments? What about using realloc for the byte arrays? Don't know if that would be such a great idea though. Stephen From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 14:50 MET 1996 Received: from olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (root@olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.1]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA21872 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:50:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gamers.org (thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA21941 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:50:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id IAA29220 for quake-dev-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 08:48:18 -0400 Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id IAA29198 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 08:46:34 -0400 Received: from daniel.cs.tu-berlin.de (woodst@daniel.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.44]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA17848 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:35:02 +0200 Received: (from woodst@localhost) by daniel.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.7.2/8.7.2) id OAA28660; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:34:57 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:34:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: Daniel Dorau To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Quake Level limits Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 18 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 891 Hello, I wanted to know if there is some official information on "how big" Quake levels can be and if there are other level limits like in Doom, where only a limited number of "doors" (don't remeber how it was called, I mean the lines which where the connecting line between two sectors..) could be displayed at a time, else one got the hall of mirrors effect. I would like to convert it to Quake and expand it to the size I originally planned, if Quake is capable of handling it. Can maybe someone of Id give some hints about this? Daniel Dorau woodst@cs.tu-berlin.de ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Wer nachts schlaeft, braucht sich nicht zu wundern, wenn er tagsueber arbeiten muss." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 16:05 MET 1996 From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:32:06 +0200 (MET DST) To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: PVS generation X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1886 X-Lines: 49 Status: RO Steve Larsen wrote: > > > this is great as long as all your doors are axial rectangles > > > > Far out idea: approximate an arbitrarily oriented and shaped > > portal by a bounding box of six axial portals. This will > > increase the PVS in pathological cases, and increase the > > number of portals, but if O(n^4) is the alternative... > Yeah, I was thinking about this myself. Create an isothetic surface > on the "wall" that contains the actual portal. The only drawback that > I saw at a glance is that this exaggeration could potentially cause > a large increase in the PVS. But to be fair, which of these approximations > couldn't? Definitely worth some consideration. According to Seth Teller, this has already been done. He pointed me to @InProceedings{Luebke:1995:PMS, author = "David Luebke and Chris Georges", title = "Portals and Mirrors: Simple, Fast Evaluation of Potentially Visible Sets", editor = "Pat Hanrahan and Jim Winget", pages = "105--106", booktitle = "1995 Symposium on Interactive {3D} Graphics", year = "1995", organization = "ACM SIGGRAPH", month = apr, note = "ISBN 0-89791-736-7", } from a Monterey 1995 symposium, authors from UNC. See http://www.cs.unc.edu/~luebke/publications/portals.html for an on-line version, or in the ./publications/postscript/ directory. Btw., this particular area of the net might be a very good place to look for alternative approaches to modify "vis". See PfPortals library at http://www.cs.unc.edu/~luebke/visibility.html. No matter how good the editors, w/o a fast PVS builder a lot of people will be very unhappy. b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 16:30 MET 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 10:22:23 -0400 X-Sender: jlowell@winternet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jim Lowell Subject: Re: Quake Level limits Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 33 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 653 At 02:34 PM 7/5/96 +0200, Daniel Dorau wrote: > >Hello, > >I wanted to know if there is some official information on "how big" >Quake levels can be and if there are other level limits like in Doom, >where only a limited number of "doors" (don't remeber how it was called, > > [ another full quote - b. ] > >Can maybe someone of Id give some hints about this? > I don't know for sure, but I've been starting my Thred levels as a cube that's 1024x1024, and at one point I had two of them stacked with a hole between them, so I could see a total distance of 2048. I wouldn't be surprised if the limits were WAY higher than that though. -= Jim Lowell =- From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 18:45 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA23145 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:45:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id MAA01776 for quake-dev-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:43:59 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id MAA01763 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:43:46 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA23051; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:32:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id SAA09386; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:31:58 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:31:58 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607051631.SAA09386@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org, bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de Subject: Linux Quake 0.91 X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1600 X-Lines: 36 Status: RO It is at ftp://ftp.lek.net/pub/quake/linux/intel_linux_quake091.tgz, and as I managed to get it this afternoon, it should be now at http://www.gamers.org/dEngine/archive/ as well, file is about 310K. Thanks heaps to Dave Taylor, again. b. = Quake ported to Intel/Linux by Dave Taylor at Crack dot Com, Inc. = To run xquake, any X server should do. To run xf86quake, you need XFree86 3.1.2E or later. To run either xquake or xf86quake, you need about 16Mb of RAM, a Pentium (any speed), an X server running in 8bit mode, a keyboard, and a video card on a local or PCI bus. You need Linux version 1.3.88 or later. You need ELF binary support. The Linux version does not support CDROM music. Mouse is supported in xf86quake. A net card will let you play net games over UDP. There is no serial support in the Linux version. To get sound, you'll need the sound driver with mmapable DMA buffers. This was definitely available in 1.3.88 and should be available in everything after that. Quake is one of the first apps to use the mmapable DMA buffers, so if it crashes, run quake with the "-nosound" option. To run xf86quake, you must have a video card that can linearly map its address space. You must also run as root. xf86quake can run faster than xquake and runs full-screen. xf86quake also allows the use of the mouse. You must also setup your XF86Config file to add lower resolution modes, typically 640x480 to 320x200. = Quake ported to Intel/Linux by Dave Taylor at Crack dot Com, Inc. = From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 19:30 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA23271 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:30:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id MAA01378 for quake-dev-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:21:55 -0400 Received: from vidar.diku.dk (root@vidar.diku.dk [130.225.96.249]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id MAA01372 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:21:50 -0400 Received: from ask.diku.dk (madsdyd@ask.diku.dk [130.225.96.225]) by vidar.diku.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA02156 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:21:46 +0200 Received: (madsdyd@localhost) by ask.diku.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA24391; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:21:44 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:21:43 +0200 (METDST) From: Mads Dydensborg To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage In-Reply-To: <199607050946.LAA09086@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 31 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 1408 On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Bernd Kreimeier wrote: > Being greedy, aren't we? There might not be such a thing - simplicity and > accuracy might well be mutually exclusive in this case. Hmmm, I'll have to > tackle this for the Primer anyway, so let's see how close I can get. > > > A Brush is a solid volume, a body wrapped into by some flat surfaces that [..] > > Take any two points on the surfaces of the brush or inside the brush. > The line connecting them has to be entirely inside the brush, and cannot > intersect any surface (except start and end point). This means a brush > is convex. [..] > > > P.S.: the above description is not accurate, btw. - there are convex > polyhedra with concave faces. I am sure there are more flaws. Please give (or point to) an example of this. (I thought I had crasped the concept : Take any two points on the face, and the line connecting them. How can it be interily inside (the 'limit' of) the brush, if the face is convex?) Mads +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Mads Bondo Dydensborg. Student at DIKU, Copenhagen - Denmark. | | Email: madsdyd@diku.dk www: http://www.diku.dk/students/madsdyd/ | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 19:57 MET 1996 Received: from olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (root@olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.1]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA23406 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:57:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA23666 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:57:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id NAA02749 for quake-dev-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:44:56 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id NAA02740 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:44:35 -0400 Received: from trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@trillian [131.220.7.51]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA23293 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:44:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from bernd@localhost) by trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id TAA09485 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:44:13 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:44:13 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607051744.TAA09485@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Brush definition/was: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1078 X-Lines: 32 Status: RO Mads wrote: >> P.S.: the above description is not accurate, btw. - there are convex >> polyhedra with concave faces. I am sure there are more flaws. > >Please give (or point to) an example of this. > Picking nits (i.e. convex nuts) here. Take a cube. You might define it using six squares - or twelve triangles, or other combinations of polygons. Obviously, you could add a concave and a matching convex polygon to create a square - and use that square to define a cube, now a convex polyhedron defined by convex and concave polygons. The definition I gave did not mention that we require a minimal number of polygons - i.e., I did not mention that qbsp merges adjacent faces with identical normals, and that a brush cannot have them anyway. A brush is defined by planes, and qbsp will reject map files with multiple planes having identical normals. Thus a brush is not only a convex polyhedron/a polytope, it has to have a minimal number of faces - exactly one face for each plane. I admit I'm mean. b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 22:13 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id WAA23595 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 22:13:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id QAA04380 for quake-dev-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:12:09 -0400 Received: from postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.20]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id QAA04375 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:12:05 -0400 Received: from carollo.acs.ohio-state.edu (ts19-8.homenet.ohio-state.edu [140.254.113.127]) by postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA25525 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <31DD76E1.1BFE@osu.edu> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 16:11:13 -0400 From: Chris Carollo Organization: The Ohio State University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage References: <199607041451.QAA08488@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 14 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 497 Bernd Kreimeier wrote: > P.S.: the above description is not accurate, btw. - there are convex > polyhedra with concave faces. I am sure there are more flaws. Are you sure about this? I was under the impression that a convex polyhedron in N-space must always have faces of convex polyhedra in N-1 space. I honestly can't even visualize how a concave polygon could be the face of a convex polyhedron, unless it was coplanar with an adjacent polygon that "filled in" its concavity. -Chris From carollo.1@osu.edu Fri Jul 5 22:21 MET 1996 Received: from postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.20]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id WAA23600 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 22:21:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from carollo.acs.ohio-state.edu (ts19-8.homenet.ohio-state.edu [140.254.113.127]) by postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA26869 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <31DD77BB.4F2C@osu.edu> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 16:14:51 -0400 From: Chris Carollo Reply-To: carollo.1@osu.edu Organization: The Ohio State University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernd.Kreimeier@NeRo.Uni-Bonn.DE Subject: Re: Brush definition/was: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage References: <199607051744.TAA09485@trillian.nero.uni-bonn.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Lines: 16 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 533 Bernd Kreimeier wrote: > Take a cube. You might define it using six squares - or twelve > triangles, or other combinations of polygons. Obviously, you could add a > concave and a matching convex polygon to create a square - and use that > square to define a cube, now a convex polyhedron defined by convex and > concave polygons. Whoops, guess I should have read all the messages before I opened my big mouth. Sorry about that - though at least I guessed correctly the case you were referring to. > I admit I'm mean. :) -Chris From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 22:53 MET 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:51:59 -0700 X-Sender: nstorm@sonetis.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jonathan Mavor Subject: Re: Qbsp Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 61 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1954 >X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.0) >From: John Carmack >Date: Fri, 5 Jul 96 01:14:49 -0500 >To: Jonathan Mavor >Subject: Re: Qbsp >References: <199607041514.AA04853@relay.interserv.com> > > >> Door #1, you totally boneheaded the shareware checks. I would never >> use a pirate beta, and I have more important things to do than hack >> quake ;) (oh wait a sec... writing an editor?) > >Well, shit. I checked for the game directory override and pak file >modifications, but I missed the default id1 tree structure. I do want to >strongly encourage people to use the -game override method of extending >Quake, instead of directly modifying the id1 hierearchy. Have you seen the >little article I released about that? > >I'll fix it on the next rev. I may gratuitously bump the bsp version >number so the next release of the tools won't work with 0.91 / 0.92 >shareware. > >> BTW how's your NT Editor coming along? > >Worked on it all day today. It is coming along nicely. I'm not doing >any radical departure from QuakeEd, because I'm allready throwing in >learning windows and GL on the project and I don't want to push too much. > >Having Very Fast accelerated hardware as a system requirement is quite >liberating for the design. We are going to deploy this on the new >intergraph Intense-3D boards when I am finished. > >My goals for the project are just to produce a very fast, very clean, very >powerful editor. It won't be too fancy, but because I have plenty of >hindsight on what is actually needed and used during the development process >now, it should be an extremely productive environment. > >I will probably release the editor, but because it is targeted at a $3000 >workstation accelerator, it probably won't be very reasonable on any stock >hardware. > >I couldn't open the file package you sent me. Could you just drop it in as >a raw .map file? > >John Carmack > > From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 22:56 MET 1996 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:55:41 -0700 X-Sender: nstorm@sonetis.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jonathan Mavor Subject: Re: Qbsp Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 71 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2370 >X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.0) >From: John Carmack >Date: Thu, 4 Jul 96 02:09:03 -0500 >To: Jonathan Mavor >Subject: Re: Qbsp >References: <199607031945.AA14507@relay.interserv.com> > >You wrote: >> It looks like either way I'm going to have to distribute custom >> copies of qbsp with my editor because of the static 16 face limit. > >I will rewrite the code to remove the face limit. I actually removed a >limit on the max number of edges on a polygon that was being hit during >the csg process, but I had forgotten about the max faces on a source brush. > >In the meantime, feel free to distrubute a modified version. I would like >to discourage gratuitous divergence, but you have a compelling reason. > > >> Also I don't know if you've given any thought to this but it might >> be interesting to change the qbsp into a front-end backend type >> process. You could have the front-end do the CSG on the the map >> file and then the backend could actually create the bsp. > >That is indeed a good structural break point. Qbsp is really larger than >I would prefer right now, and that would probably be a good place to >seperate it. I might do that. > >> With my >> editor this would be much more efficient because I could just do >> the csg in my maps and export directly do the back end. > >Possibly that would be a savings, but I am a bit loathe to accept polygon >input because it does not have the same guaranteed correct properties of >convex polyhedrons. > >> Otherwise >> some of the geometry that I can create (and I know people will want >> to create) is just completely in-efficient using convex brushes. > >While that would be the case for the brush count in the .map file, it is >abviously not true for the end product -- they both become (statistically) >the same merged polygon fragments after the csg/merge phase. > >> I don't know what the projected lifespan of the product is but it >> would be nice to be able to really push the limits of the engine. > >I'm game for making worthwhile improvements to the quake technology over >the next year or so. I may be starting on my next clean sheet of paper >design soon, but I may also get drawn into some more quake exploitation. >Dunno yet. > > >John Carmack > From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Fri Jul 5 22:57 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id WAA23620 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 22:57:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id QAA05125 for quake-dev-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:56:34 -0400 Received: from relay.interserv.com (uhura.interserv.net [165.121.1.67]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id QAA05118 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:56:29 -0400 Received: from nstorm.sonetis.com (port010-29-yow.iosphere.net) by relay.interserv.com with SMTP id AA03582 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for quake-dev@gamers.org); Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:56:39 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:56:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199607052056.AA03582@relay.interserv.com> X-Sender: nstorm@sonetis.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jonathan Mavor Subject: Re: Jon's Quake Editor Webpage Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 21 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 651 At 04:11 PM 7/5/96 -0400, you wrote: >Bernd Kreimeier wrote: > >> P.S.: the above description is not accurate, btw. - there are convex >> polyhedra with concave faces. I am sure there are more flaws. > >Are you sure about this? I was under the impression that a >convex polyhedron in N-space must always have faces of convex >polyhedra in N-1 space. > >I honestly can't even visualize how a concave polygon could be >the face of a convex polyhedron, unless it was coplanar with an >adjacent polygon that "filled in" its concavity. I think that's what he was saying. The .MAP format eliminates this though. L8r, Jon From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Sun Jul 7 15:02 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA25066 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:01:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id IAA13438 for quake-dev-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 08:58:13 -0400 Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id IAA13434 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 08:58:06 -0400 Received: from daniel.cs.tu-berlin.de (woodst@daniel.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.44]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA19203 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:03:49 +0200 Received: (from woodst@localhost) by daniel.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.7.2/8.7.2) id AAA05191; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:03:45 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:03:44 +0200 (MET DST) From: Daniel Dorau To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: OS/2 Quake Editor? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 12 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 599 Hmm - just wanted to ask if someone in this mailing list plans to write a OS/2 editor for Quake (or already did :). If there are people reading this know other people which are doing this then they should hint me and those people. Got it? ;) Daniel Dorau woodst@cs.tu-berlin.de ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Wer nachts schlaeft, braucht sich nicht zu wundern, wenn er tagsueber arbeiten muss." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Sun Jul 7 15:34 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA25364 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:34:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id JAA13620 for quake-dev-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 09:32:48 -0400 Received: from gozer.actioninc.com (gozer.actioninc.com [204.118.161.2]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id JAA13616 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 09:32:45 -0400 Received: (from aiken@localhost) by gozer.actioninc.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id OAA31686; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 14:00:24 -0700 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 14:00:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Brooks Talley X-Sender: aiken@gozer.actioninc.com To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: QuakeEd & textures? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 15 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 652 Has anyone gotten QuakeEd to work with textures and all? I've got the thing running very nicely, and can make some very nice levels and all, but QuakeEd chokes when I try to load texture libraries (base.wad, etc, as supplied on Crowbar's home page). The message is something like, "Error: not a mipmapped texture" or close to that, anyways. For those doing similar things to me, there is an excellent rsh service for NT available from cdrom.com, called rshdnt17. Combined with a decent system and NFS, it's easy to get QuakeEd's BSP building menus to work and offload that processing to a hefty NT machine. aiken ----- aiken@illuminati.org From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Mon Jul 8 02:55 MET 1996 Date: Tue, 01 Jan 1980 05:37:13 +0000 From: Stephen Crowley Organization: WebFire X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: QuakeEd & textures? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 32 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 609 Brooks Talley wrote: > > Has anyone gotten QuakeEd to work with textures and all? I've got the > thing running very nicely, and can make some very nice levels and all, > but QuakeEd chokes when I try to load texture libraries (base.wad, etc, > as supplied on Crowbar's home page). The message is something like, > "Error: not a mipmapped texture" or close to that, anyways. > Are you using the newer wad's off my page? I noticed that the first lump has to be 'PALETTE' so I updated all the wads. Get the new ones and let me know if it works. Stephen Crowley aka Crowbar http://www.wf.net/~stephenc From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Mon Jul 8 03:07 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id DAA26783 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 03:07:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id VAA02202 for quake-dev-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:07:02 -0400 Received: from kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu [129.101.126.10]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id VAA02197 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:06:55 -0400 Received: (from kamikaze@localhost) by kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA00221 for quake-dev@gamers.org; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:54:39 -0700 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:54:39 -0700 From: Mark Hughes Message-Id: <199607080054.RAA00221@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: OS/2 Quake Editor? Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 772 X-Lines: 15 Status: RO Daniel Dorau spake: >Hmm - just wanted to ask if someone in this mailing list plans to write a >OS/2 editor for Quake (or already did :). If there are people reading >this know other people which are doing this then they should hint me and >those people. Got it? ;) I, too, would like to see an OS/2, DOS, or Java (without any native methods) QuakeEd... I have no intention of installing LoseNT or 95, and while I might consider Linux or FreeBSD, I'd *LIKE* to not waste disk space on another OS. Anyone have plans in this direction? Or at the least to write something vaguely portable, so someone else can adapt it to OS/2? -Mark Hughes Quake console command list From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Wed Jul 10 20:07 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA10058 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:01:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id NAA13993 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:55:13 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id NAA13986 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:54:59 -0400 Received: (from bernd@localhost) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id TAA09979; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:54:54 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:54:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Message-Id: <199607101754.TAA09979@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org, bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de Subject: Info from John Cash X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 7117 X-Lines: 183 Status: RO >From Sean , who forwarded me some info he got from John Cash. He also pointed out that there is a quake-servers list (see next posting). b. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Cash Date: Sun, 7 Jul 96 22:10:21 -0500 To: Sean Allen Subject: Re: Server datagram bytes You wrote: > Mr. Cash, > > I've written a program called Qconnect that displays servers that > are up from a list you maintain, and allows you to select one and > it automatically spawns Quake and connects to that IP (it's > freeware). > > I am polling the server with the string { 0x80, 0x00, 0x00, 0x0C, > 0x02, 'Q', 'U', 'A', 'K', 'E', '\0', 0x01 }, but I am curious about > one (well actually two) of the bytes returned. > > The fourth byte over seems to have something to do with what map > your are on (even though the name of the map is given). I can not > figure out what this byte is for. > > 1) What is the 4th byte over for/is it important? > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > 80 00 00 26 83 206.86.0.22:26000 00 bigmac 00 e1m5 00 10 10 03 ^^ I > have seen it as 0x26, 0x28, 0x29, 0x2a, 0x2b, 0x2c, 0x2d and 0x32. > Playing around with a local server (both dedicated and listen) I > can only get this number to change when I'm on different maps. My > expience has been: > > 0x2b Start map 0x2a E1M1 - E1M8 0x29 DM1 (released w/ Carmacks > source) > > I don't know why other servers have numbers that vary. My guesses > are it either has something to do with the number of hops, the ping > time, what version of Quake being used, coop or DM, or something > else. I have eliminated (I think) most of these possibilities so > I'm at a loss. > > > 2) What is the last byte for? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > 80 00 00 26 83 206.86.0.22:26000 00 bigmac 00 e1m5 00 10 10 03 ^^ > My guess is the version number. This always appears to be 03, but I > saw one case where a qtest server was running test1 and it was 01. > > 01 Qtest 02 ??? 03 .91 - .92 > > (FOLLOW UP QUESTION) If it is the version number, is there a 02 > version? And, is there any plans with .94 or above on this number > (03) changing? > > > 3) Could you please, possibly send me a query string that lists the > players currently playing? Did I mention the word please - with er, > sugar on top? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Thank you so much for your time - this will help me w/ my next > version, Sean Allen srallen@nando.net Well, with all the sugar on top... I guss I have to answer you ;-) Actually a few people have been asking for this info, so it's about time I gave it to you all. Are you on the quake-servers mailing list? If so, please feel free (hint, hint) to post this info there; if not let me know so I can do it. For network play (IPX and TCP/IP), all Quake packets start with an 4 byte header: The first short (16-bit) is flags; 0x8000 indicates a control (non-game data) packet The second short is the length of the packet (including the header). For control messages, the next byte is the message type. The one you've all been using is: #define CCREQ_SERVER_INFO 0x02 The next series of bytes is a null terminated ASCII string with the game's name in it. Currently "QUAKE" is the only supported value, but you can probably imagine other possible values that will appear in the future. And the last version is a protocol version, currently: #define NET_PROTOCOL_VERSION 3 For QTEST1 it was 1. Now for the repsonse packet. First two bytes are the same format header. These two shorts are in network (big endian) order BTW. Next byte is the message type again. In this case: #define CCREP_SERVER_INFO 0x83 This is followed by a null terminated ASCII string containing the address (including socket) of the server's control socket. Some people may wonder why I return the address here since you had to know it to send the server the request in the first place. It's not for the slist function either; I can get the address out of the response there. This exists for the purpose of supporting proxy/meta/tracker servers. Quake doesn't have all the support there yet, but when it does this will become very useful. It will let a program running on a machine (like Qconnect, for example) return this response on behalf of another machine. IOW, imagine being able to do an "slist stomped" and having Quake go ask stomped (or aftershock or whatever site) for it's current server list. This will eliminate the cycle of: hunt for server, start quake, connect to server". You'll be able to do it from within Quake. Of course, I'm always open to suggestions for what people want to see in this area. Anyways... the next two fields are null terimated ASCII string. First is the server's hostname, second is the current map name. These are followed by: a byte number of current players and byte maximum number of players. The last byte contains the verion number (same one as above). The reason it's in both sides is for backwards compatability. For example, I'm planning in adding one more field to the respnse containing the version of Quake the server is running. I'll bump the protocol version number too. That way if I get a request with version 3 I won't include it, but if I get a version 4 request I will. I hope this helps. BTW, are you on the quake-servers mailing list? If not, you should be. I'm planning to release the specs for the whole protocol there Real Soon Now. Yes, there is more stuff you can get in the same manner. Like players info: name, colors, frags, how long they've been connected. And the server rules: gravity, timelimit, fraglimit, etc..... You like? --- John Cash "I want to move to theory, everything works in theory" From: John Cash Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 19:15:29 -0500 To: Sean Allen Subject: Re: Server datagram bytes You wrote: > I am on the "quake-dev" mailing list, I believe this is what you > are referring to. I will post it there. Let me know if there's > another list that I'm not on. Here's the little trailer from the quake-servers list: To unsubscribe from quake-servers, send a message with the word "unsubscribe" in the body to quake-servers-request@premier.net. Please address any problems with this list to owner-quake-servers@premier.net > No, I love! Great stuff! BTW, I played around with changing the > CCREQ_SERVER_INFO's byte (I tried all 256). Found two other bytes > that worked, 0x01 and 0x04. 0x01 seems to do an initial request to > log in??? The return packet also seems to have a time embedded in > it??? I have no idea what 0x04 does, it just sometimes returns 0x85 > (CCREP_SERVER_??????) and a couple more bytes. Care to send > #defines ;-) ? Yes, 0x01 is CCREQ_CONNECT... don't do that! ;-) You missed 0x03??? I'll send you info on the others Real Soon Now. --- John Cash "I want to move to theory, everything works in theory" From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu Jul 11 02:46 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id CAA10775 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 02:46:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id UAA19305 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:44:30 -0400 Received: from marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (root@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de [131.220.7.30]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id UAA19293 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:44:07 -0400 Received: (from bernd@localhost) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) id UAA10355; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:43:38 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:43:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bernd Kreimeier Message-Id: <199607101843.UAA10355@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de> To: quake-dev@gamers.org, bernd@marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de Subject: Quake Servers list X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org Content-Type: text Content-Length: 705 X-Lines: 25 Status: RO Thanks to Sean Allen , who pointed out the Quake Servers mailing list to me: This mailing list is for the discussion of the development and maintenance of large quake servers. It is NOT for general quake discussions, quake editing discussions, or OS issues. This mailing list is a private forum and should be treated as such. Off-topic and/or abusive messages will not be tolerated. This mailing list is archived at: ftp://ftp.premier.net/pub/lists/quake-servers Subscription: at majordomo@premier1.premier.net. This is a majordomo list like this one, see the help and info files. b. From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu Jul 11 04:33 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id EAA10835 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 04:33:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id WAA23784 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:30:22 -0400 Received: from admin.fcbe.edu.on.ca (admin.fcbe.edu.on.ca [192.197.192.2]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id WAA23777 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:30:16 -0400 Received: from Fluff (lassie3.fcbe.edu.on.ca) by admin.fcbe.edu.on.ca (MX V4.1 AXP) with SMTP; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:34:26 EDT Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:30:16 -0400 Message-Id: <199607110230.WAA23777@gamers.org> X-Sender: johnsond@admin.fcbe.edu.on.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: johnsond@admin.fcbe.edu.on.ca (Dan Johnson) Subject: compiling qbsp util Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 31 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1370 Greetings, I am attempting to compile the QBSP utility for Windows 95 using Borland C++ 5.0. The files compile properly but when it attemps to link the objects I recieve three errors: Unresolved External '_bitbytes' referenced from module soudpvs.c Unresolved External '_uncompressed' referenced from module soudpvs.c Unresolved External '_portalleafs' referenced from module soudpvs.c Does anyone know how to fix this error?? Even with these errors the linker still creates an .exe file. Trying to QBSP the dm1.map will cause an error in Windows although QBSPing lavapit.map (available from AfterShock) seems to work. Unfortunatley if I load it in Quake is gives me a Bad Surface Extents error. Now is this error realted to the QBSPing or the map file itself?? What I really hope to accomplish is to change the forward slashes '/' into back slashes '\' so that the .wad file inclusion will work. If you know of any QBSP util that will do this can you please E-mail me it's location. Thanks Fluff (http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/2994) +-----------------------------------+ + Insanity is not a state of mind + + but + + a release of the mind + +-----------------------------------+ From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu Jul 11 04:58 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id EAA10845 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 04:58:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id WAA24150 for quake-dev-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:54:59 -0400 Received: from undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (root@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.204.13]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with ESMTP id WAA24144 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:54:48 -0400 Received: from cnts4p06.uwaterloo.ca (cnts4p06.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.198.6]) by undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA07032 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199607110257.WAA07032@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> From: "Carsten Whimster" To: "quake-dev@gamers.org" Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 23:00:24 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Carsten Whimster's Registered PMMail 1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: compiling qbsp util Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 30 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1562 On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:30:16 -0400, Dan Johnson wrote: >Greetings, > > I am attempting to compile the QBSP utility for Windows 95 using >Borland C++ 5.0. The files compile properly but when it attemps to link the >objects I recieve three errors: > > Unresolved External '_bitbytes' referenced from module soudpvs.c > Unresolved External '_uncompressed' referenced from module soudpvs.c > Unresolved External '_portalleafs' referenced from module soudpvs.c > >Does anyone know how to fix this error?? Even with these errors the linker >still creates an .exe file. Trying to QBSP the dm1.map will cause an error >in Windows although QBSPing lavapit.map (available from AfterShock) seems to >work. Unfortunatley if I load it in Quake is gives me a Bad Surface Extents >error. Now is this error realted to the QBSPing or the map file itself?? Somewhat related... I have been doing some work on NT with qbsp, light and vis, but when I try to use the resulting BSP file with Quake, it complains that it "can't spawn server DM1" and so on. Given that I am not willing to stealing a Quake beta before I can buy the game, how can I do this with SW until the full game is released? "Map DM1" doesn't work, and neither does "-game" on the commandline. Carsten Whimster EDM Associate Editor, Book Reviewer carsten_whimster@iqpac.com EDM Site: http://www.iqpac.com/ The OS/2 API Project http://www.iqpac.com/edm2/os2api/ My Webpage http://www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~bcrwhims/ From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue Jul 9 19:15 MET 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:11:19 -0700 X-Sender: nstorm@sonetis.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: quake-dev@gamers.org From: Jonathan Mavor Subject: Re: .MAP, comments allowed? Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 43 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1044 At 11:08 PM 7/7/96 -0500, you wrote: Man I haven't got a message from this list in so long I forgot I was on it. >For all the .MAP parsers out there, are comments allowed in MAP files? If so, >where do they go and how? > I'm interested in this also. >I would like the user to be able to name each brush, and to store that >data in a comment in the MAP file. In addition, I thought of using comment >areas for data such as Meta-Brushes, so the user could group three brushes >together and name the group "DoorWay". > I have "groups" and would like to be able to export them. >There's always the option of using my own file format to store all the >data and exporting to MAP, but I'd rather not. > This is what I do but I have "exceptional" needs. For instance my own bsp, concave brushes etc. The format I'm using is also a text so that it can easily be expanded on etc. Pretty well everything in thred has name including the groups (they also have a colour), the brushes etc. L8r, Jon From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue Jul 9 19:34 MET 1996 From: "Ryan Drake" To: Subject: Re: .MAP, comments allowed? Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:24:46 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1080 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 30 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 477 > For all the .MAP parsers out there, are comments allowed in MAP >files? If so, where do they go and how? I believe the C++-style double-slash comments are allowed. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------- ----+ | Ryan Drake Sanity is the trademark of a weak mind. | | stiletto@psu.edu -- Mark Harrold | | http://www.crayola.cse.psu.edu/~drake/home.html | +------------------------------------------------------------------- ----+ From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Tue Jul 9 21:41 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA05248 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:41:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id PAA02890 for quake-dev-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:37:27 -0400 Received: from yoss.canweb.net (root@yoss.canweb.net [207.0.185.8]) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) with SMTP id PAA02886 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:37:21 -0400 Received: (from fisty@localhost) by yoss.canweb.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA02775; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:35:26 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:35:26 -0400 (EDT) From: FiSTY To: quake-dev@gamers.org Subject: Re: .MAP, comments allowed? In-Reply-To: <199607091728.RAA160816@r02n06.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-quake-dev@gamers.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quake-dev@gamers.org X-gamers.org: quake-dev@gamers.org X-Lines: 49 Status: RO Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Length: 1160 On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Ryan Drake wrote: > > > For all the .MAP parsers out there, are comments allowed in MAP > files? If so, > > where do they go and how? > > I believe the C++-style double-slash comments are allowed. Correct. I've done some testing and it would appear that it does allow // comments both within brush definitions and outside brush definitions. I asked John Carmack whether pairs were allowed within brush definitions and he said that they were not. But you can comment within them so there is away around that. For instance I wanted: { "classname" "worldspawn" { ( 1 1 1 )... ( 2 1 4 )... "_group" "whatever" ( 3 7 6 )... } ... But this isn't allowed however you can put a // before the "_group" "whatever" and it will pass this by without screaming. I've also noticed that if you have: { "classname" "worldspawn" "wad" "whatever" this is not a comment <- Focus on this line "more" "stuff" .... qbsp does not have a problem with this... interpret as you may... ...Matt =========================================== FiSTY fisty@yoss.canweb.net the shaker project - http://www.canweb.net/~fisty/shaker/ From quake-dev-owner@gamers.org Thu Jul 11 14:44 MET 1996 Received: from gamers.org (majordomo@thegate.gamers.org [128.205.37.150]) by marvin.nero.uni-bonn.de (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA13980 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:44:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by gamers.org (thegate/gamers) id IAA28379 for quake-dev-outgoing; Th